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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi Guys,
Thought I would share my Front Brake pad change with you with pictures, glean your advise and any tips for the rear ones. Well after watching youtube videos, purchasing some front pads, a brake caliper tool, some silicone grease and lots a hex bits I set about what I thought would be done in under an hour!

5744

Ready for Action!

After taking off the wheel and Caliper sliding bolts ( I didn't forget to undo the brake reservoir) I discovered that there was at least 4mm left on the pads when I had imagined it more like 2mm when viewed from the outside...Did I really need to change them?...Oh well i'm hear now so lets go ahead. Using the caliper tool against the old pad (It just fitted) I found that I had to grip it with large pliers to stop it turning on it self...did I get the wrong thread? (Right hand).

5745



With a bit of fiddling it pushed the caliper back. Following that I cleaned it up and greased the ear's of the pads discovering that the spring brackets on the back were not exactly the same! but working it out eventually. There was no sensor to connect up to so thought it must be on the other wheel. So side one done...longer than an hour!

5747

Discs about 8mm

The other wheel proved easier but I made the mistake of not checking the brake reservoir while pushing the caliper back...Oh dear brake fluid all over the place...disaster!

5748

Caliper slide condition and brake fluid all over the place

Fitted pads ok but had to use a turkey baster (Mrs J not approved) to suck out more brake fluid.

5749

Amount of Brake fluid removed...didn't think that would happen!


Apart from that all went well, now for the rears...Comments welcome!
Cheers AJ
PS... There was no brake wear sensor on the other side so I sniped the one on the pad off. Oh and it took me about 4 hours..
 

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Glad it was successful even if time consuming! If you got a brake fluid overflow,someone must have added some since new or they put too much in when they replaced fluid at the change,this happens because they don’t allow for pad wear and just fill up to maximum or even above.The front calipers are just a push in type piston,and the rears need to be rotated clockwise with the rewind tool.As you found they stopped putting wear sensors on the Yetis at some point on certain models anyway.The pads have different sized spring clips fitted,inner and outer,though at first glance they are alike.Probably saved yourself £100 by your DIY!
 

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Well after watching youtube videos, purchasing some front pads, a brake caliper tool,
That tool looks like the one you use on the rear to wind back the self adjusting handbrake piston.
Edit: noticed that Topgun saw that too!
 

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Also make sure to clean off all spilt brake fluid,and wipe with oil ,or the paint could be damaged.Rear brakes,remove the slider pins,clean them,and regrease with silicone grease,remove any rust from the pad carrier and use copper grease on moving surfaces.
Even more brake fluid may need removing before winding in the pistons.
 

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Definitely clean up your spilt brake fluid.
It is one of the substances used in chemical resistance tests during the development of under-bonnet automotive components, as it has a habit of weakening certain plastics and eating paint finishes.

Has the can of worms marked "The best greases to be used when assembling brakes" been opened on this forum?!
 

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Has the can of worms marked "The best greases to be used when assembling brakes" been opened on this forum?!
Yup, there have been comments about Copper Slip, Ceratec Red Rubber Grease, Silicon Grease etc :)
 

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Not sure about the axle stands you used but better than nothing, I went to the Vets and asked them for the biggest hypo needle they had, preferably for an elephant I told them, and I don't want the needle, when I explained that it was to accurately measure oil for filling my motorcycle forks and also using for extracting brake fluid from the brake res with a bit of fish tank air hose they were happy to sell me one, I did ask first for a used one what they would be chucking away. I must say I've had that same syringe now for 20yrs and I've used it for drawing brake fluid out the res, if you can't bleed your motorcycle brakes put the syringe over the nipple if you haven't a vacuum gage and draw it through with the syringe to assist, I've over filled the engine on the bike and sucked out oil, back to level and it goes on.
 

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Yeti S+ 2010 2.0TDi CR110 2WD Manual
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AJ

1) That pile of random bits of wood supporting the wishbone pivot point - looks decidedly dodgy!! :eek: (n):poop: Not sure I would want to put my head in a wheel arch with the chassis supported on that "leaning tower"?

2) The wind-back tool you have is designed to act directly against the piston, NOT the old pad. BEWARE of YouTube videos!!! Very few posters on there demonstrate "best practice". Far too many demonstrate the exact opposite!

3) Good quality Wind-Back tools have exchangeable heads designed to match different piston diameters, etc. Search Ebay for brake wind back tools and you'll see the kits with multiple heads included. It looks like the head you have is intended for pistons with slots cut. It has pegs intended to engage with corresponding slots in the piston outer face. For the type of caliper that needs the pistons to be rotated as the piston is pushed back. Other heads have flat faces for pistons that do not need to be rotated, just a straight push back. Yet other heads are reversible. Flat one side, pegs on the other. Looks like yours has pegs both sides? The good tools have 3/8" square drive centres, to enable the heads to be interchanged or reversed.

4) As others have said above, the Yeti front pistons don't need to be rotated (but it does no harm if they do and can ease the push process). The rears DO need to rotate as they push in. By serendipitous fortune, the Sykes Pickavent wind back tool I purchased 25+ years ago to wind back the rear pistons on a Rover 216, fits both the front and rear pistons on the Yeti perfectly. It has a raised outer lip that presents a flat face to the Yeti's front pistons, to push those back. While at the rear the lip fits neatly around the outer diameter of the piston, as two shallow pegs on the head engage perfectly with the slots in the pistons, to rotate the piston as it pushes. Works a treat on the Octavia too!

Before that, I used the old method of squeezing the piston back with a pair of plumbers’s adjustable pliers. That kind of works, just. But is useless for a piston that needs to be rotated, as do the Yeti rears. Only with that tool is an old pad handy, left in place on the piston. As it gives the jaws of the pliers something better to act on at an angle, rather than the piston’s outer face itself.

5) Moving to the brake fluid issue. It is generally accepted by professionals (as opposed to idiots who post on You Tube how they did it) that pushing used fluid back towards the master reservoir is NOT best practice. Several reasons.
A) The risk you discovered AJ of overflowing the reservoir. With all the ensuing damage that can cause, as listed by TopGun and Cubes above.
B) NOT good to be pushing old, heat degraded fluid back into the reservoir to be used again.
C) Risks flipping the seals in the master cylinder the “wrong” way, as fluid is pushed past them in the wrong direction.
D) Not good for ABS valve units to be bathed in old fluid from the calipers - encourages those valves to stick, leading to ABS faults.

Far better to crack open the brake bleed nipple on the relevant caliper then push the old fluid out through a bleed tube, into a suitable collecting jar, as you push the piston back.
  • This avoids ALL the difficulties listed above. Plus:
  • You’ll also be surprised how discoloured (compared to fresh fluid) is the fluid that comes out, after it’s been through several hundred, if not thousands of heat cycles.
  • Also makes the push back a whole lot easier, as the fluid has less resistance to exiting via this much shorter escape route.
  • Provided you work carefully, and retighten the bleed nipple closed as soon as you finish pushing back the piston, there is very little risk of introducing any air. As you are pushing stuff out. Not drawing stuff in.
  • Pad changes often coincide very roughly, with the need to replace the brake fluid anyway. Depending how many miles you cover annually. So it fits in and saves work overall to bleed out the old fluid out anyway. Then flush through some fresh fluid, while you have the wheel off the relevant corner. Rather than do the jobs separately.
  • As a used fluid collection vessel, I use an old jam jar, with a screw top lid. And a hole punched in the centre of the lid with just a big enough diameter to accept the bleed tube from my brake bleed kit. This has the added advantage, that if/when the jar gets knocked over part-way through the process, when it is half full of knackered fluid, the said fluid doesn’t all spill out, but is retained in the jar. Then it also allows you see clearly what state the old fluid is in, that is being pushed out. :)
  • Like Kaptainkremmin, I use a selection of second hand (past their “use by” date), veterinary syringes to draw old fluid from the reservoir. Such as just prior to flushing new fluid through the system. In 20ml or 50ml syringe sizes. Coupled to a length of discarded hospital O2 tubing. (Which also doubles very nicely as bleed nipple to collector jar tubing.)
 

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There wasn’t the wiring for pad sensor to my 2016 1.4tsi yeti, too.
I’ve been wondering for a long time, but I’m glad to understand that newer models don’t have sensors.
 

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The 2012 Elegance models don't have the sensors either, I wonder if they were ever fitted to UK models.

And thanks to Flintstone for posting my thoughts almost word for word, my tongue was getting quite sore from being bitten for so long.. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Glad it was successful even if time consuming! If you got a brake fluid overflow,someone must have added some since new or they put too much in when they replaced fluid at the change,this happens because they don’t allow for pad wear and just fill up to maximum or even above.The front calipers are just a push in type piston,and the rears need to be rotated clockwise with the rewind tool.As you found they stopped putting wear sensors on the Yetis at some point on certain models anyway.The pads have different sized spring clips fitted,inner and outer,though at first glance they are alike.Probably saved yourself £100 by your DIY!
Thank you Topgun, Flintstone and everyone else who has commented. On some of your points-
I hosed down the engine compartment to wash off as much Brake fluid as possible. I think you were right Topgun the reservoir was so full that It's no wonder I couldn't see any level when rocking the car. I'm pretty miffed with myself for not checking the level properly! Flintstone, The wind back tool I purchased has both sides with notches in although not needed for the front caliper i used it just to see how it works. Today I did the rear pads where it did it was needed.
5753

Bit stiff but not problems.


5754

Long screw driver to wedge caliper out.

5755

Pads down to around 3 mm.

5757

New pads -Happy days.

5758

Disaster around the brake reservoir!

For the rear brakes today I used a turkey baster to suck out a fair amount of fluid so i didn't repeat yesterday. I hope the new pads will last around 40k when the discs will need replaced. I do get satisfaction from doing the job myself as well as saving a kings ransom compared to garage services. (I changed the oil last week). I know using timber instead of axle stands is a bit Heath Robinson but I'm happy with it..(My ramps are made out of free pallets!)
I can't thank everyone enough who runs this site, a wealth of information and tips-a great job.
Next job is changing the pollen filter, surely that can't be that difficult?
Cheers and Thanks
AJ
 

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The pollen filter is a doddle takes fifteen minutes, here is a link to a post on changing it in the Yetipedia.

 

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I'm somewhat jealous of the general cleanliness of your running gear!

Yours...

5759


Mine...
5760


If I were trying to design an effective mud trap, I would use this bracket as my starting point.


Good job on the brakes (y)
 

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Yeti S+ 2010 2.0TDi CR110 2WD Manual
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Has the can of worms marked "The best greases to be used when assembling brakes" been opened on this forum?!
As Bryetian replied, I think it has. But some while ago?

I’ve been round the circle of ”Coppaslip” to “Ceratec” and back over a few years. Of late though, I’ve come to think there may be a case for both - in the appropriate circumstances.

I appreciate the case against Coppaslip or copper grease, for areas where dissimilar metals are in juxtaposition. As the copper granules can tend to encourage electrolytic corrosion between the components. On the other hand, I’ve found the more traditional copper grease to be longer lasting than Ceratec. The brake manufacturers themselves tend to recommend the more modern Ceratec.

Hence most recently, I’ve adopted a “horses for courses” approach.
- Ceratec in all locations where dissimilar metals are involved. Such as:
a) Caliper piston outer face (where it impinges on the inner brake pad). Some would say this area is not necessary? I think it does no harm, but can help prevent noise.
b) The inner face of the outer caliper “fingers”, where they meet the back of the outer pads.In addition to noise/squeal prevention, this also prevents the corrosion between the alloy calipers and the steel pad backs - as is very evident in the pictures of the rear pads in AJ60's post at #11.
c) Hub flange or spigot, where the alloy wheel sits on the steel hub. Just the inner circle of the hub
- Copper grease on the steel pad “ears”, where they contact onto the iron pad carrier brackets.

Does regular silicone grease not have (way) too low a melting point for brake component or hub area use?
 

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For many years I used CopaSlip in a lot more applications than I do now, primarily because it was easy to get hold of, and it it what my Dad used.

These days CopaSlip gets used for its intended purpose ... an anti-seize compound between parts that do not move relative to each other in service. That would mostly be threaded joints.

I have a tube of "Granville Silicone Grease" in the garage. It was bought specifically for caliper sliders, although I have since found out that its service temperature is limited to 200 degC.
Now this is probably fine for the vast majority of the time on a relatively lightweight road car driven moderately, but it strikes me as a bit low for prolonged, more spirited use.

I used to use CopaSlip on sliders, the pad/piston interface, and the pad/caliper interface. But after a while it does get a bit claggy (I believe that is the correct technical term) if exposed to enough heat, atmosphere and time.

So these days I use "Granville Ceramic Brake Grease" for these brake applications. Seems to be just as effective as CopaSlip but without the, erm, clagginess.
The TDS says it is good up to 1200 degC.
And no worries about it becoming a dielectric for any aluminium to dissolve into.
 

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Not only brakes, but other applications also.
Using anti-seize on wheel bolts seem to provide grounds for heated disagreements between keyboard warriors.

We got the Yeti a month ago or so. The first thing I do on any used car that is new to me, is to make sure that I would be capable of changing a wheel at the side of the road if I had to.
The front brakes had been replaced by the previous owner a month or so earlier, and he seemed to have tightened the wheel bolts to a reasonable torque. So they came off just fine.
But the rears hadn't been touched for quite some time.
My breaker bar plus a 4-foot pipe, and about 50 kilos of force were required to crack each of the ten wheel bolts. Somewhere in the region of 600-700 Nm of torque required to get the wheel bolts moving. Good luck with that in a sopping wet lay-by.

I always use a small amount of anti-seize on the threads of wheel bolts to prevent this from happening. I am quite aware that the tightening torque is usually quoted for dry threads, and that it will increase the preload of the bolt for a given tightening torque.
But the increase in tension in the wheel bolt through using anti-seize on the threads pales into insignificance when you consider the tension these bolts withstand during hard cornering, for example.

I also had to kick seven shades out of the tyres to get the rear wheels to separate from the brake discs. I know there is supposed to be friction in this interface to withstand the turning moments during heavy braking, for example, but my cars get a very thin smear of lube.


I have one car with aluminium wheel nuts, and I don't use copper-based anti-seize on those.
That car is also the only one of the fleet that has spark plugs. Interestingly, the packaging of the Granville silicone grease has a big picture of a spark plug on it, but it neglects to tell you which end of the spark plug one should apply it to!


I'm not preaching that what I do is correct, but it has caused me no problems over many years of average motoring.
 

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That all makes a great deal of sense Cubes. 90% of which I try to practice myself. The exception being silicone grease on (either?) end of the spark plugs ;)

Particularly about checking a fresh car, so that the wheels (usually alloy in the modern era) can actually be separated from the hubs when needed. That’s where Ceratec comes in handy on the hub spigots. The Fiat 500 in the Flintstone fleet (and the KA = same car mechanically and platform) has a couple of small, conical locator studs screwed into each wheel hub, disc or drum. Making replacing the wheel much easier. Something I wish other manufacturers adopted.

Onto the debate of should or shouldn’t you apply anti-seize to wheel nut or bolt threads? The Australian auto engineer John Cadogan (of AutoExpert.com) reckons lubricated threads should have the tightening torque reduced by as much as 30%, to avoid over-stretching the bolts themselves. He provides all the maths and physics in a You Tube video on the subject. (I know I said yesterday to AJ to beware of amateur YT videos. In this case though, JC is both properly qualified in the physics and a professional in making his pronouncements :).)

Interesting aside (possibly?), aluminium wheel nuts are banned in most branches of motorsport, especially rallying, because of their inherent weakness compared to steel equivalents. For any given size of nut and thread length combination, they are far less capable of handling those dynamic (cornering) loads imposed during “spirited” driving. You mentioned those loads in #16.
 

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The 2012 Elegance models don't have the sensors either, I wonder if they were ever fitted to UK models.

And thanks to Flintstone for posting my thoughts almost word for word, my tongue was getting quite sore from being bitten for so long.. :)
You're welcome Derek! Great minds? Or equal fools who seldom differ?

Our 2010 S spec (pauper level) Yeti had a pad wear sensor on the near side (outer) pad only. Past tense now, because it started to give false warnings and fault lights a few years ago. Whereupon the advice from the Skoda trained independent specialist we bought the car from, was: "When that happens we usually just cut off the sensor cable connector, solder the two wires together then tuck the cable out of the way. For someone like yourself who monitors the pad wear regularly anyway, then the sensors are a waste of time in the first place." So that's exactly what I did. Taking care to cut off the pad sensor cable, not the twinned cable to the ABS sensor! The distal end of the pad wear cable now sits, tucked back against the base of the suspension strut, with its cut end soldered, sealed and cable tied to the bracket that supports both it and the ABS cable. New pads that come with a short length of sensor wire embedded and a connector. Just snip off the wires as close as possible to the pad. No false warning lights on dash, so MOT friendly solution. :)

Its a similar story on the BMW. Pad wear sensors on the near side only. 1 front, 1 rear.

By contrast, the economy / "city" cars in the fleet, the 500 and KA, each have pad wear sensors on the front. Of a completely different principle and design. Instead of contact wires embedded into the friction material, they have a 3-4mm diameter "pin" on the end of the sensor cable. That pops into a suitably sized hole in the pad back plate, held there by its own friction. The end of which protrudes alongside the friction material by approx 2mm. So when the pads get sufficiently worn, the pin makes contact with the disc. Producing both a noise under braking and an electric contact to illuminate a warning on the dash. In theory. It has never actually happened to my cars because I've always swapped the pads and discs before reaching that wear level. An advantage of the design though is that it operates on the inner pads. Which on single piston floating caliper designs, usually wear the fastest. Brembo pads come with a new pin and short length of wire to the push connector where the wires join the car's loom cable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
AJ

1) That pile of random bits of wood supporting the wishbone pivot point - looks decidedly dodgy!! :eek: (n):poop: Not sure I would want to put my head in a wheel arch with the chassis supported on that "leaning tower"?

2) The wind-back tool you have is designed to act directly against the piston, NOT the old pad. BEWARE of YouTube videos!!! Very few posters on there demonstrate "best practice". Far too many demonstrate the exact opposite!

3) Good quality Wind-Back tools have exchangeable heads designed to match different piston diameters, etc. Search Ebay for brake wind back tools and you'll see the kits with multiple heads included. It looks like the head you have is intended for pistons with slots cut. It has pegs intended to engage with corresponding slots in the piston outer face. For the type of caliper that needs the pistons to be rotated as the piston is pushed back. Other heads have flat faces for pistons that do not need to be rotated, just a straight push back. Yet other heads are reversible. Flat one side, pegs on the other. Looks like yours has pegs both sides? The good tools have 3/8" square drive centres, to enable the heads to be interchanged or reversed.

4) As others have said above, the Yeti front pistons don't need to be rotated (but it does no harm if they do and can ease the push process). The rears DO need to rotate as they push in. By serendipitous fortune, the Sykes Pickavent wind back tool I purchased 25+ years ago to wind back the rear pistons on a Rover 216, fits both the front and rear pistons on the Yeti perfectly. It has a raised outer lip that presents a flat face to the Yeti's front pistons, to push those back. While at the rear the lip fits neatly around the outer diameter of the piston, as two shallow pegs on the head engage perfectly with the slots in the pistons, to rotate the piston as it pushes. Works a treat on the Octavia too!

Before that, I used the old method of squeezing the piston back with a pair of plumbers’s adjustable pliers. That kind of works, just. But is useless for a piston that needs to be rotated, as do the Yeti rears. Only with that tool is an old pad handy, left in place on the piston. As it gives the jaws of the pliers something better to act on at an angle, rather than the piston’s outer face itself.

5) Moving to the brake fluid issue. It is generally accepted by professionals (as opposed to idiots who post on You Tube how they did it) that pushing used fluid back towards the master reservoir is NOT best practice. Several reasons.
A) The risk you discovered AJ of overflowing the reservoir. With all the ensuing damage that can cause, as listed by TopGun and Cubes above.
B) NOT good to be pushing old, heat degraded fluid back into the reservoir to be used again.
C) Risks flipping the seals in the master cylinder the “wrong” way, as fluid is pushed past them in the wrong direction.
D) Not good for ABS valve units to be bathed in old fluid from the calipers - encourages those valves to stick, leading to ABS faults.

Far better to crack open the brake bleed nipple on the relevant caliper then push the old fluid out through a bleed tube, into a suitable collecting jar, as you push the piston back.
  • This avoids ALL the difficulties listed above. Plus:
  • You’ll also be surprised how discoloured (compared to fresh fluid) is the fluid that comes out, after it’s been through several hundred, if not thousands of heat cycles.
  • Also makes the push back a whole lot easier, as the fluid has less resistance to exiting via this much shorter escape route.
  • Provided you work carefully, and retighten the bleed nipple closed as soon as you finish pushing back the piston, there is very little risk of introducing any air. As you are pushing stuff out. Not drawing stuff in.
  • Pad changes often coincide very roughly, with the need to replace the brake fluid anyway. Depending how many miles you cover annually. So it fits in and saves work overall to bleed out the old fluid out anyway. Then flush through some fresh fluid, while you have the wheel off the relevant corner. Rather than do the jobs separately.
  • As a used fluid collection vessel, I use an old jam jar, with a screw top lid. And a hole punched in the centre of the lid with just a big enough diameter to accept the bleed tube from my brake bleed kit. This has the added advantage, that if/when the jar gets knocked over part-way through the process, when it is half full of knackered fluid, the said fluid doesn’t all spill out, but is retained in the jar. Then it also allows you see clearly what state the old fluid is in, that is being pushed out. :)
  • Like Kaptainkremmin, I use a selection of second hand (past their “use by” date), veterinary syringes to draw old fluid from the reservoir. Such as just prior to flushing new fluid through the system. In 20ml or 50ml syringe sizes. Coupled to a length of discarded hospital O2 tubing. (Which also doubles very nicely as bleed nipple to collector jar tubing.)
Flintstone, thank you for your comments regarding brake maintenance, I am now considering bleeding the whole system. Question-Can I bleed the yeti the old way with someone pumping the brake and someone releasing the bleed nipple or as someone told me that the system has to be under pressure from one of those pumps. In the old days the sequence was always to bleed the furthest nipple first. Any suggestions appreciated.
Regards
AJ
 

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Hi AJ,
You can flush the brake fluid using the traditional two-person method. With one in the wheel arch calling “down, up, down, up”, while locking and unlocking each bleed nipple in turn.
However, any car with ABS (which now means almost anything modern), it is far more effective to use a pressure system.

Garages tend to use a vacuum system that pulls fluid from the wheel caliper end. For the last 30+ years though I’ve used a Gunson’s Ezebleed kit. That pushes fluid from the reservoir end under pressure. Now on my second after the plastic parts on my old one got opaque and brittle with age. Around £22-23 from Screwfix.

That makes the job FAR easier and quicker, as well as more effective with ABS. Less risk of spillage too, as the top up into the car’s reservoir is via a sealed pipe from a container included with the kit that holds up to half a litre of fresh fluid. More than enough to flush an entire car. All under the pressure from a spare wheel (any odd wheel will do but has be at a max of 10psi during the process). Makes the whole thing a one man job that can be controlled 100% from the bleed nipple.

As to which order? Yup - like yourself, I always used to believe the principle of “start farthest from the reservoir and end closest”, to be the mantra to follow? If you consider the Yeti owners manual was originally written for LHD, then that is the order it actually suggests. Like a lot of things though, it appears to be an area that was not converted in the English translation?

I’m not convinced it makes any difference at at all on modern ABS systems though? And have bled and flushed many systems over the last 10 years, starting from whichever corner I happened to be working from first when changing pads. Such as the fronts. With 100% success. Sometimes even when the rears got flushed several days after the fronts.

Perfectly happy to hear what others have to say mind, on any of the above? Cue: Bryetian, Urrell, Logiclee, MarkTDi, et al?
 
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